MMG Spa 2007 v1.0 Release Options

[Petros Mak]

If you think it takes 30 mins tops, then by all means, do it and release these updates you speak of in 30 minutes. I'd love to see it. Its not as simple as how you say it. There is a lot involved in fixing up the graphics, first we have to consider if the model needs some extra fixes to up the quality level, we would need to re-map all the textures we want to change to better quality, then re-paint them all. If you think thats a 30min job, then I'd love to hire you to do it for MMG cause man, I'd love to be able to have those fixes done in 30mins. Heck I think steve would love to know how to do it in 30mins tops too.

[simracer]

If you think it takes 30 mins tops, then by all means, do it and release these updates you speak of in 30 minutes. I'd love to see it. Its not as simple as how you say it. There is a lot involved in fixing up the graphics, first we have to consider if the model needs some extra fixes to up the quality level, we would need to re-map all the textures we want to change to better quality, then re-paint them all. If you think thats a 30min job, then I'd love to hire you to do it for MMG cause man, I'd love to be able to have those fixes done in 30mins. Heck I think steve would love to know how to do it in 30mins tops too.

quite easily, try setting the fences to multiple transparency, double sided and glass and a bias of -1 (should take 30 seconds to do that) then get a decent texture of a fence that has the alpha layer correct (should find one in any rf track) thats the fences look corrected (mapping would take longer but only a few hours)

the transparencies are wrong because the alpha layer is not set correctly (2 mins to fix) and the dds is saved as a dxt3 instead of a dxt5 which the multiple transparency requires, you can also add a cube map to give the glass a bit of reflection (easiest way is to use a constant 0.2 just to give it a little gloss) there are 4 or 5 window texture so that should take no more than 10-15 minutes

That would be 2 major faults fixed in less than 30 minutes... don't begin to tell me how to make tracks Petros as I will make you look silly, just listen to criticism when it's offered and try not to get so upset when someone doesn't tell you how great everything is.


Comparison shots:-

As for simracer, claiming its not a keeper or we should be supporting another company more is something I do not take kindly to. No one gets better at doing something without feedback and if you don't keep the track, then you won't see how it can progress in the future. Bear in mind that SteveB works really hard to get these tracks out and then spends countless of more hours updating them once feedback is acquired.

As for supporting simbin more, we do that with our GTR Evo mod, I don't see why we need to support them in our rFactor mods when they are not the creators of rFactor. We don't like doing rival game conversions and the only reason we do the F1C - rF tracks from RH's trackpack is because Steve does a great job in it compared to others you have seen around the net and while doing it, he learns to better himself more and more. Sure simbin tracks are great, but they would need to be cut down so much to be put in rfactor due to the resource hungry that they are.

As SteveB is the ONLY track modeler we have for our modding side, you can clearly see why it takes so much time.

Ok, where to start.

feedback comes in two forms, positive and negative..if all you do is listen to the positive and berate those that give negative then you will never improve. I listed several faults that are easy to fix and gave an honest opinion of the track, certainly never bashed it. If you bring out a better version that fixes all the problems then I may well keep that version but I see no reason to keep a track that is basically still a beta. The fact that I try the track out is testament to my showing support for SteveB but I'm not going to lie and say the track is great when it is clearly not.

Supporting another company, well it's called community and it's something that I believe in, by using the best track available you would support Simbin and rFactor which surely can only be a good thing, I am frankly surprised at your attitude regarding supporting the community as a whole as it's fragmented enough already and does not need to be split any further, we should encourage people to try all the sims and rid ourselves of the "my game is better than your game" BS that blights our hobby.

Cut down the simbin tracks , ridiculous, there are many tracks available from GTL, GTR2 and Race that run perfectly well in rFactor and are only resource hungry if they have been poorly optimised. The tracks may have been a struggle for pc's 2 years ago but surely now most people have computers that can run them.

The easiest way to learn (and what I do with every track I get) is to look at how the track has been made, look at the bit's you like and the bits you don't and see what settings were used and if you like what you see then try it, if it works then great and if it doesn't then you can try something else, either way you've learnt something.

[Steve B]

I didn't have any of those issues you showed in the before and after shots if I did then they would have been fixed.
I wouldn't have sent out the track to Petros if the windows of a building weren't showing or if a tree looked messed up.

[crbassassin]

Just for future references. When errors like that occur its 99% corrupt download. Now the downloads work as they have been tested, so either your net conked out while downloading for a brief second or something happened that corrupted the download. Re-downloading will fix it. Sometimes I find I have to download things 3-5 times lately with all these download places. Dunno why its been happening lately but yeah. Just re-download and you should be fine.

adjusting texture details to high or max fixed it

[simracer]

I didn't have any of tose issues you showed in the before and after shots if I did then they would have been fixed.
I wouldn't have sent out the track to Petros if the windows of a building weren't showing or if a tree looked messed up.

well that is what it looks like here, never mentioned the trees though, the first shot shows the fact that the fencing is invisible (which it is in your release screens so it must be the same for you) and that by altering the material settings you can fix it quite quickly, though I'd have to remap the fences and get a better fence texture to make them look less oppresive.
I'd check your released track again for the windows, think you'll find that they are indeed as I showed on the screenshots.

[Steve B]

well that is what it looks like here, never mentioned the trees though, the first shot shows the fact that the fencing is invisible (which it is in your release screens so it must be the same for you) and that by altering the material settings you can fix it quite quickly, though I'd have to remap the fences and get a better fence texture to make them look less oppresive.
I'd check your released track again for the windows, think you'll find that they are indeed as I showed on the screenshots.

I did check them again and all was fine.
I know how to fix the fence problem take me a few minutes to fix.

The problem is what i see on my screen isn't the same for everyone else unless we all had the same PC and running the same level of graphics.
I can pick apart every track ever done for rFactor because NONE of them are perfect there are and always will be issues for everyone.

Sorry it didn't meet your standards but I am happy with it.

[Brandon Gant]

END OF DISCUSSION, i would say

[Maurice]

END OF DISCUSSION, i would say

Agree, bit of a pointless discussion. I think if Steve would have seen such obvious "bugs"(I think I may call it so when talking about 30 mins to fix , and only appearing on certain settings) than he would have fixed them before releasing it.

I mean seriously it's looking more like bashing rather than motivating when you make it look like childplay to fix it, I have yet to test the track but I am sure MMG wouldn't have released it if the fence problem is the case for everyone and they would be aware of it.

And Simracer, where did you steering wheel go

Anyway stick with comments on the track itself rather than the off-topic discussion about what is best for MMG (nothing personal )

[imacken]

Sorry guys, but this is not a pointless dicsussion.
The fact is, that there is something wrong with this track Steve. I have been an admirer of your work over the last year, and ths is the first time that I have criticised anything of yours.
I have no technical knowledge of track building, but all I can say is that something is very wrong here.
All you have to do is drive very, very slowly through Eau Rouge and along the following straight. Look at the fences on the right and left. Sometimes they are just not there. The only time they are visible is when they have sky as background. If there are trees or buidlings, then the fences just aren't there except for the bit you can see in front of the sky.
You'll also notice that if you look in the trees in that section, there are false horizons in the middle of them.
There are lots of other things like building roofs - eg. Bridgestone building after turn 1 - that just don't have a finished look, they just look like they are in an early stage of 3D modelling.
Also, the earth banks around the circuit look poor. There is no detail in them at all.
There is also something weird about the sky/horizon relationship. Just look at it when going up hill after Eau Rouge, or downhill later in the lap. Just isn't right. (Yes, I know that it's going down and up hill, but still.)
Please accept these points as feedback and don't think that I am criticising the hard work you guys do. We've come to expect a high standard from MMG/Steve and this Spa track just isn't in the usual league at all!
(PS. I have the same as simracer's screenshot #3.)

[simracer]

IT WILL ONLY BE END OF DISCUSSION ONCE THE CENSORSHIP STARTS

I did check them again and all was fine.
I know how to fix the fence problem take me a few minutes to fix.

The problem is what i see on my screen isn't the same for everyone else unless we all had the same PC and running the same level of graphics.
I can pick apart every track ever done for rFactor because NONE of them are perfect there are and always will be issues for everyone.

Sorry it didn't meet your standards but I am happy with it.

You obviously didn't check them enough as they are wrong, and if you knew how to fix the fence problem why not do it before releasing the track?

The track is poor, sorry but that's the truth, the mapping needs fixing, there are no bump or spec settings anywhere, there is no use of rFactors shaders anywhere and that's just the beginning.
I'm very sorry you feel that I "bashed" the track but it if you can't handle the truth and at times severe criticism that comes with being in a high profile group then your in the wrong game, as MMG's official track maker I assumed you were familiar with the use of bumpmaps, spec maps, shaders and cubemaps so I was amazed to see the track devoid of them. Unlike people that just post "this tracks shit" or "what a load of crap" I gave my reasons why I thought the track was average and what it needed to fix it, then I was mocked when I said it was a 30 minute fix and told to prove it, well I did and now I'm wrong for doing that too. As for it not looking like that for you, well frankly I don't believe it, and I suppose not one beta tester had it look like it either, I always thought the idea of beta testing was to use as many different pc's running DX7 DX8 and DX9 tried on low medium and high detail and every other variable that you can, that's why beta testing is so boring and time consuming, even though I could see the problems were there when I viewed the track in simed before even running it.
When you start with a poor track as a base then it's much harder to get it looking like the tracks being released these days, quite often the mesh is very poor, the textures outdated and way too low res and the tracks have not been made with modern dx shaders in mind.

Of course you are right to say no track is perfect (though Mid Ohio isn't far from it) and you can pick fault in any track (Mid Ohio could do with some bumps in the track surface imo) but there is a difference to finding fault and having things jump out at you when you run the track, imacken it would appear can see the same things I do (I ignored the sky/horizon thing as it didn't bother me as much as the other stuff) this track is not up to what I've seen from you before, when I saw it had been released on VirtualR I shot straight over to download it and reading the first few posts (The best Spa I've ever seen - fantastic track etc.) I was expecting great things, the only thing that was great was my dissapointment.

As for your pm, well I prefer not to hide behind pm's, after all this is meant to be a discussion forum. If people criticising the track are supposed to do it in private then shouldn't those that praise it do the same? or is that a rule I missed somewhere.
My original post may have been a bit harsh, after all I used the words average and even said terrible once. Everything I said in that post I stick by and I can tell you now that if this was your first ever track I would have said nothing at all, but you are not new to this and you have released several (better) tracks. You know nothing of how much or little I have helped people so please keep your wild accusations to yourself, and I never once said I know it all either, but I do know how to set transparencies and fences in rFactor and if Petros had asked me nicely instead trying to tell me how wrong I was then maybe I would have told him nicely too.
If it's ok with you I will stay on my high horse though as I get a better view of the tracks from up here and it helps me f~*k up the community (as you so nicely put it) and outdo everyone else. My first post was feedback (whether you like to admit it or not) the rest were a reaction to provocation.






@ Maurice I never have the steering wheel displayed in game as it doesn't look good for me seeing both the one in my hands and a virtual one on screen.

[dibbdroid]

"You obviously didn't check them enough as they are wrong, and if you knew how to fix the fence problem why not do it before releasing the track?" How the f*&k do you know?

No wonder Steve quit doing the tracks for MMG.

At the end of the day nobody is perfect and SteveB gave it his best shot in his own time for free and the manner in which this alleged constructive criticism has been put together is quite frankly a disgrace. There are a lot better ways of telling someone there are errors without getting all arsey about it and jumping down someone's throat because they recognise harsh treatment when it's around.

This seems to be symptomatic of a lot of posts in the time I have started using MMG releases and if any of you guys were in my department and treated any of the team in this way you would soon be out the door.

I suggest this thread is removed and should you feel there are some improvements to be made post them up without calling the track crap and work shoddy and firing off. It would have been a lot better to offer up what you felt was wrong and maybe help in the process.

If you're so bloody good why don't you offer your services up to MMG as a track builder and start putting your work on the line for us all to see.

Personally I would like to thank Steve for putting the effort in to get this track released and should he find the time to apply some fixes I look forward to these too along with the other tracks which may be released in the future.

[simracer]

"You obviously didn't check them enough as they are wrong, and if you knew how to fix the fence problem why not do it before releasing the track?" How the f*&k do you know?

No wonder Steve quit doing the tracks for MMG.

At the end of the day nobody is perfect and SteveB gave it his best shot in his own time for free and the manner in which this alleged constructive criticism has been put together is quite frankly a disgrace. There are a lot better ways of telling someone there are errors without getting all arsey about it and jumping down someone's throat because they recognise harsh treatment when it's around.

This seems to be symptomatic of a lot of posts in the time I have started using MMG releases and if any of you guys were in my department and treated any of the team in this way you would soon be out the door.

I suggest this thread is removed and should you feel there are some improvements to be made post them up without calling the track crap and work shoddy and firing off. It would have been a lot better to offer up what you felt was wrong and maybe help in the process.

If you're so bloody good why don't you offer your services up to MMG as a track builder and start putting your work on the line for us all to see.

Personally I would like to thank Steve for putting the effort in to get this track released and should he find the time to apply some fixes I look forward to these too along with the other tracks which may be released in the future.

How the f*&k do I know? because I know what I'm talking about unlike you

I never got arsey and jumped down anyones throat, read my first post, such harsh words as "average" "horrible" and "terrible" are used but two of those describe the mapping of the road and the tso's which are a fault of the base track and probably nothing to do with SteveB.

please show me where I said the track was crap, you can't because I never said it.

My attitude changed when I got an immature and offensive PM

I have no desire to work for MMG

I Have backed up my words by explaining how to fix two of the things I mentioned when I was sneered at by Petros and posting the screenshots to prove it.

Go ahead and remove the thread, far better to live in denial than accept the truth when God forbid somebody says they dislike something MMG have done.

[imacken]

Although we've had run-ins in the past, I've got to say that I am completely on simracers side here.
Some facts:
- we all appreciate the hard work that Steve has put into the MMG tracks over the last year and have said so both in this forum, this thread, and the previous MMG forums
- this Spa was declared by Petros to be 'being finalised' some time ago, which suggests to me and others that it should be considered to be finished now after all this time.
- this Spa is basically not right. There are many things wrong with it.
- it is completely crazy that people get flamed by others for expressing some contructive observations that are not necessarily singing MMGs praises. God knows, we've done enough of that with the fantastic 2007 mod and several great tracks over the last year.
- why can't you fanboys just accept that for once, this piece of work is not up to the usual very high standard we've come to expect from MMG and Steve?
- simracer has offered to help with the textures, etc. on the track, but Petros wasn't interested because of the way simracers criticism was worded.
- to suggest that this thread be deleted is frankly unbelievable!! Should we only allow threads that kiss the ground that MMG walk on? Come on guys, this is supposed to be a forum where people try to help and be constructive. I really wonder what sort of world some of you guys live in! Does it involve discussion at all, or do you live in some sort of vacuums and wear rose tinted glasses?
The bottom line here is that the track needs some serious re-working, and there shouldn't really be any dispute about that.
I again repeat (for the millionth time) that is taking nothing away from Steve and the phenomenal effort he has put in over the last year.

[dibbdroid]

Simracer, the comments are general and in no way aimed at an individual on this post. And as for me not knowing what I'm talking about, thanks, I need the odd timely reminder.

Imacken, it's not a matter of kissing the MMG ass but more getting a point across without sounding like the firing squad are lined up outside and there is an angry mob waiting to bayonet any survivors. Some people get this right others go way beyond.

[simracer]

Simracer, the comments are general and in no way aimed at an individual on this post. And as for me not knowing what I'm talking about, thanks, I need the odd timely reminder.

The fact you quoted me and then posed the question "How the f*&k do you know?" seemed to indicate that your post was aimed at me, I apologise for my comment about you knowing nothing, I have no idea what you do or don't know, but then you know nothing of me either and that was what I meant by that.

[dibbdroid]

It seems a lot of us know nothing which is a pretty good starting point, peace out.

I would like to see a thread the same as the one I posted on the old forum showing the status of 2007 tracks and progress which went a bit like this:

Australia [Albert Park] - MMG Australian F1-07 Track V3 (Final)
Malaysia [Sepang] - MMG F1 Malaysian F1-07 Track V1
Bahrain [Sakhir] - MMG Bahrain F1-07 Track V1.2 (Not-Final)
Spain [Catalunya] - MMG Spainish F1-07 Track v2 Fixed
Monaco [Monte Carlo] - MMG Monaco F1-07 Track v2
Canada [Gilles Villeneuve] - MMG Canadian F1-07 Track v2
USA [Indianapolis] MMG F1-07 V1
France [Magny-Cours] - MMG French F1-07 Track v1
Britain [Silverstone] - MMG Great Britian F1-07 Track v3
Germany [Nurburgring] MMG Europe F1-07 V1
Hungary [Hungaroring] - MMG Hungary F1-07 Track v1
Turkey [Kurtkoy] - MMG Turkish F1-07 Track v2
Italy [Monza] MMG Italy Track V1
Belgium [Spa] MMG Spa F1-07 Track v1
Japan [Fuji Speedway] MMG Fuji F1-07 v1
China [Shanghai] MMG Shanghai F1-07 v1
Brazil [Carlos Pace] MMG Brasil F1-07 v1

Note: only Australia is "Final" which would indicate there is still work to be done on the others.


If these are not due which versions are recommended by the community? [Notes: since the post have found a version of Turkey on http://fsr.simracing-online.com/ which is by far more drivable than the above. As for Nurburgring, I have failed to find a version which doesn't drive like a space hopper on flubber or a version of Indianapolis which works with MMG.

[MMG_Derek]

- this Spa was declared by Petros to be 'being finalised' some time ago, which suggests to me and others that it should be considered to be finished now after all this time.

all finalized means is that its ready for release, that does NOT mean the track is the final version. you have to compile and bundle it for release which, while that is being done, is called finalizing.

[Steve B]

windows on the buildings have been fixed.

I will re map all the fences starting tonight.

[cyberguy]

I for one am thrilled with the Spa track and if it gets tweaked, so much the better. However, if it stays as it is, then I will happily race on it as I think it is the best Spa i have ever driven.

My congratulations and thanks to Petros, Steve B., Derek and all the team for creating the environment in which my friends and I can race in such a quality setting.

I can't speak for others, nor would i want to. My opinion is that I am one lucky fellow to be able to avail myself of the fruits of the efforts of these talented individuals.

[imacken]

Simracer, the comments are general and in no way aimed at an individual on this post. And as for me not knowing what I'm talking about, thanks, I need the odd timely reminder.

Imacken, it's not a matter of kissing the MMG ass but more getting a point across without sounding like the firing squad are lined up outside and there is an angry mob waiting to bayonet any survivors. Some people get this right others go way beyond.

This debate is out of control now.
It's guys like you who are flaming it up. If you'd been around the MMG forums over the last year, you'll know it's guys like me (and many others) who have been consistently praising MMG and their excellent work. That doesn't mean that everything has to be perfect, and this track just isn't and it's great to see that Steve is working on the fences, windows, etc.
It's you who is using language like 'ass' 'firing squad' 'angry mob' 'bayonet', etc. etc. No-one else is.
I am looking forward to the new version from Steve.